[Lee Brimmicombe-Wood]

When I arrive in Sweden I may be looking for an opponent to play this old SPI favourite with me.

[Elias Nordling]

I'd like to play it someday. The situation appeals to me.

[Lee Brimmicombe-Wood]

I'd like to play it someday. The situation appeals to me.

It's a pretty standard SPI operational wargame, only on the maddest terrain imaginable. It's quite chaotic and brutal. It's a situation that eats up armies.

[Elias Nordling]

I'm not that fond of the SPI-standard system, Modern Battles-style, but a good theme can easily win me over.

[Lee Brimmicombe-Wood]

I'm not that fond of the SPI-standard system, Modern Battles-style, but a good theme can easily win me over.

The They Shall Not Pass rule leads to much entertainment.

For a game based on the Modern Battles chassis it has a pretty strong narrative you will find.

[A F]

It's a pretty standard SPI operational wargame, only on the maddest terrain imaginable.

Which is of course why it is only in 80's wargames killing off Berlin is a WP victory requisite. Why burn out an ARMY fighting for the place when it can just as easily be contained by East German second line units (and no, those 50 Chieftain's won't take off for Warsaw...) while the ARMY in question instead smashes its merry way towards the Rhine?

[Lee Brimmicombe-Wood]

Which is of course why it is only in 80's wargames killing off Berlin is a WP victory requisite. Why burn out an ARMY fighting for the place when it can just as easily be contained by East German second line units (and no, those 50 Chieftain's won't take off for Warsaw...) while the ARMY in question instead smashes its merry way towards the Rhine?

One thing Berlin '85 depicts is how close the city runs to the rail lines and MSRs running past the city, well within artillery interdiction range.

[A F]

One thing Berlin '85 depicts is how close the city runs to the rail lines and MSRs running past the city, well within artillery interdiction range.

True, but beside the point. NATO had how many howitzers in West Berlin? In how many close-to-nuke-proof emplacememts? And with how much ammo considering they would never had been re-supplied?

Air strikes and cruise missiles was probaly a larger threat to the East German road net. But those again strikes would probably have been a waste of time anyway as the Soviets would have been aiming at a very short war fought on "internals". In a Soviet way of seeing things a Tomahawk heading for some railroad bridge on the Vistula is a win as it is not interfering with the 5th Shock Army outside Bremen.

[Lee Brimmicombe-Wood]

True, but beside the point. NATO had how many howitzers in West Berlin? In how many close-to-nuke-proof emplacememts? And with how much ammo considering they would never had been re-supplied?

The question to ask is how much could NATO have interfered with the MSRs given careful husbanding of resources and suitable security measures against counterbattery efforts?

Air strikes and cruise missiles was probaly a larger threat to the East German road net. But those again strikes would probably have been a waste of time anyway as the Soviets would have been aiming at a very short war fought on "internals". In a Soviet way of seeing things a Tomahawk heading for some railroad bridge on the Vistula is a win as it is not interfering with the 5th Shock Army outside Bremen.

I'd agree, but don't forget that Soviet strategy was based upon the echeloning of forces and the timely application of these echelons. The object of interdiction would not have been to hit supply (which was a thankless and difficult task) but to bottleneck and disrupt the movement of the backup echelons.

[A F]

The question to ask is how much could NATO have interfered with the MSRs given careful husbanding of resources and suitable security measures against counterbattery efforts?

Very litte, I'm afraid. One of the problems with shoot and run SP arty tricks is that they don't work that well in cities. To few places to run.

I'd agree, but don't forget that Soviet strategy was based upon the echeloning of forces and the timely application of these echelons.

Just how much of the GSFG's in-country second wave (not the shmucks comming up from Odessa) would have had to make way past Berlin before going into action of day three or four?

[Vvornth]

What part of Sweden will that be that you're staying in?

EDIT: Nevermind, had my question answered in another thread.

[Lee Brimmicombe-Wood]

What part of Sweden will that be that you're staying in?

Malmö.

[Lee Brimmicombe-Wood]

Very litte, I'm afraid. One of the problems with shoot and run SP arty tricks is that they don't work that well in cities. To few places to run.

I think that's true if the enemy is pressing upon you in the city and trying to limit your movements. But if you're let alone by a siege strategy then a city offers a fair amount of security.

That said, lots of quick shoots on the MSRs would rely on good intelligence, suitable observation, adequate opportunity and ample ammunition. I can't imagine NATO would have more than two of these at any time.

It also must be admitted that much would depend on the inclination of local commanders to stir the hornet's nest with such actions. Traditionally, these are situations that can lead to a failure of nerve.

Just how much of the GSFG's in-country second wave (not the shmucks comming up from Odessa) would have had to make way past Berlin before going into action of day three or four?

Depends on mobilization. If it's a jump out of barracks jobbie then gey few, I'd suspect. Given longer mobilization there's always the chance of scragging the Cat II units. I doubt the echelons from the Baltic Military District can all route--particularly by rail--without at least some having to filter past Berlin.

[A F]

Depends on mobilization. If it's a jump out of barracks jobbie then gey few, I'd suspect. Given longer mobilization there's always the chance of scragging the Cat II units. I doubt the echelons from the Baltic Military District can all route--particularly by rail--without at least some having to filter past Berlin.

Don't think the Soviets would have made much of a build up as any sign of a build up would have caused NATO to start build up too. The worst (best) case would probably have been a large exercise taking a wrong turn and suddenly head for Hanover. A lot like the Egyptians did when they crossed the Suez. By the time the attack came the Israels has almost stoped caring about the egyptians endless bridging drills and SHIT, THEY ARE CROSSING!!! WHERE IS MY UZI?!?!??!