[Elias Nordling]

2: Imagery

Looking at the covers our our game sample, we find the following:

Germanocentric imagery:
Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! - Russia 1941-1942 (Academy Games)
Paukenschlag
Red Christmas
Spanish Fury (Arguably a spanish nazi)
Stalingrad
Barbarossa: Kiev to Rostov
Combat Commander Battle Pack - Stalingrad
Lock 'n Load: Dark July (Though the fake cyrillic is a bit allied-centric)
Valor of the Guards
Drive on Kursk
Polonia '39
Pantery w akcji
Field Commander: Rommel
Barbarossa
Total: 14


Neutral imagery or unknown:
Desert Duel
Gazala Line 1942
Factories in Flames
Arctic Front Deluxe
First Axis
Street Fighting in Berlin
101st Airborne At Brecourt Manor
Ivan's War
Sinyavino 1942
Stalingrad
Alam Halfa
Axis & Allies Anniversary Editions
The Battle for Berlin
Operation Typhoon: Barbarossa Denied
Singling
Storm Over Stalingrad
Stalingrad: The Leather Factory
Breakout at St. Lo
Roumania 1944
Le Chir
Maleme
Assault on Sevastopol
Drive on Metz
Paul Koenig's D-Day: The American Beaches
Paul Koenig's D-Day: The Canadian Beach
No Retreat!
Total: 26

Allied-centric imagery:
Arctic Convoy
Campaigns & Commanders
Elsenborn Ridge
Island of Death
March on Leningrad
Rumors of War
White Eagles
Frontline General
Avanti Savoia
Hurtgen Surprise
Surprised Outside of Strass
June'44
Highway to the Reich
Lightning Poland
Fast Action Battles: The Bulge
Fields of Fire
Action Pack 4: Normandy 1944
The Devils' Cauldron
Cobra
Bagration 1944
Red Thunderstorm
The Bulge
Total: 22


Discussion: Looking at the covers qualitatively, the Germano-centric covers more often show the Germans as tired, dirty ragged or under pressure, while the Allied-centic covers usually show the Allies as clean, well equipped and generally in a good position.

Again, I think it would be fair to say that if the Germans are 50% of the player sides of these games, an equal share of cover space would be reasonable. A total lack of Germans on the cover would be suspiciously like white-washing of the hobby (though in fairness, you can certainly construct neutral imagery by including both Germans and Allies).

Looking at the covers in isolation, there is a significant bias towards Allied-centric covers, with 1/3 more covers showing the Allied perspective than the German perspective.

[Elias Nordling]

Part 3 Copy
Now, we look at the back text of the box, if accessible. If not, the sales pitch for the game from the manufacturer's home page. Many magazine games don't have any significant sales text.

Germanocentric copy:
Conflict of Heroes: awakening the bear
Red Christmas
Lightning Poland
Operation Typhoon: Barbarossa Denied
Field Commander: Rommel
Assault on Sevastopol
Total: 6

Neutral, unknown or no copy:
Desert Duel
Gazala Line 1942
Factories in Flames
Arctic Convoy
Arctic Front
Campaigns & Commanders
Elseborn Ridge
First axis
Island of death
March on Leningrad
Rumors of war
Frontline General
Street Fighting in Berlin
101st Airborne At Brecourt Manor
Avanti Savoia
Hurtgen Surprise
Ivan's War
Spanish Fury
Stalingrad
June'44
Barbarossa: Kiev to Rostov (in the East Front series)
Combat Commander Battle Pack - Stalingrad
Fast Action Battles: The Bulge
Fields of Fire
Stalingrad
Alam Halfa
Axis & Allies Anniversary Edition
The Battle for Berlin (Kurt Kempf)
Lock 'n Load: Dark July
Action Pack 4: Normandy 1944
Singling
Storm Over Stalingrad
Valor of the Guards
Stalingrad: The Leather Factory
Breakout at St. Lo
Cobra
Drive on Kursk: July 1943
Polonia '39
Bagration 1944
Pantery w akcji (Kaniów 1943)
Red Thunderstorm (Budziszyn 1945)
Roumania 1944 (VV)
Le Chir, 8 Dec 1942 (VV)
Maleme, 20-23 May 1941 (VV)
Barbarossa: The Russo-German War, 1941-45
The Bulge
No Retreat!
Total: 47

Allied-centric copy:
Paukenschlag
White Eagles
Surprised Outside of Strass
Highway to the Reich
Sinyavino 1942
The Devils' Cauldron
Drive on Metz
Paul Koenig's D-Day: The American Beaches
Paul Koenig's D-Day: The Canadian Beach
Total: 9

Discussion: I have been pretty generous in calling box text biased in one direction or the other. Some of those listed as biased above actually give the perspective from both sides in a pretty neutral tone, just giving one side or the other slightly more space. The simple fact is that biased copy text in either direction is pretty rare in this sample, most of it is fairly dry and factual.

Conclusion: There is a pro-allied bias here, but the number of biased items are so small as to be statistically insignificant. Looked at in isolation, no bias in either direction can be detected for this category.

[Elias Nordling]

4) Topic

Part 4 of the quantitative study covers the topic selection:

If the topic of the game or the scenario selection is from the German perspective, for example showing a German operation but ending before the Allied counter-operation, the game can be considered Germano-centric, and vice versa.

This is actually more relevant than the previous three parts. Those previous parts were about what we want to give an appearance of doing, this is about what we actually do.

Here's the result:

Germano-centric topic:
Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! - Russia 1941-1942
Desert Duel
Paukenschlag
Gazala Line 1942
Campaigns & Commanders (two German offensives, one Allied)
Island of Death
March on Leningrad
Barbarossa: Kiev to Rostov
Fast Action Battles: The Bulge (skips most of the Allied counter-offensive)
Alam Halfa
Operation Typhoon: Barbarossa Denied
Lock 'n Load: Dark July (LnL)
Storm Over Stalingrad
Stalingrad: The Leather Factory
Drive on Kursk: July 1943
Pantery w akcji (Kaniów 1943)
Roumania 1944 (VV)
Le Chir, 8 Dec 1942 (VV)
Maleme, 20-23 May 1941 (VV)
Field Commander: Rommel
Assault on Sevastopol
The Bulge (no allied counter-offensive)
Total: 22


Neutral topic or unknown:
Factories in Flames
Arctic Front Deluxe (finno-centric)
Elsenborn Ridge (German attack, but allied heroic moment)
First Axis (Slovako-centric)
Rumors of War
White Eagles (possibly pro-German due to being a German victory, but can be seen as complete war within war.)
Avanti Savoia (italocentric)
Ivan's War (sounds Allied-centric but I can't find any detailed info)
Red Christmas (italocentric)
Spanish Fury (hispanocentric)
Stalingrad (2nd. ed., in the Advanced Tobruk series) (Lack info to tell if scenario selection might be biased).
Lightning Poland (possibly pro-German due to being a German victory, but can be seen as complete war within war.)
Combat Commander Battle Pack - Stalingrad
Stalingrad (in the Empires of History series)
Axis & Allies Anniversary Editions
Valor of the Guards (Lack info to tell if scenario selection might be biased)
Polonia '39
No Retreat!
Barbarossa: The Russo-German War, 1941-45
Total: 19


Allied-centric topic:
Arctic Convoy
Frontline General: Italian Campaign Introduction
Street Fighting in Berlin
101st Airborne At Brecourt Manor
Hurtgen Surprise
Surprised Outside of Strass
June'44
Highway to the Reich
Sinyavino 1942 (Firefight Games)
Fields of Fire
The Battle for Berlin (Kurt Kempf)
Action Pack 4: Normandy 1944
The Devils' Cauldron
Singling
Breakout at St. Lo
Cobra
Bagration 1944
Red Thunderstorm (Budziszyn 1945)
The Drive on Metz
Paul Koenig's D-Day: The American Beaches
Paul Koenig's D-Day: The Canadian Beach
Total: 21


Discussion: This part was much harder to tabulate than the previous. I found some recurring topics hard to sort as Allied or German-biased. Take Stalingrad, for example. It is a German offensive, but it is also a legendary Soviet defense. The same goes for The Bulge, legendary offensive, but also the finest hour of the US Army and a humiliating defeat for the Germans. Operationally, it is somewhat easier to make the distinction, the fact that most Stalingrad or Bulge games at this level cuts out the Allied counteroffensives put them in the pro-German bias category. Tactically, it's a toss-up, so I counted it as neutral. And what about the Polish campaign? It was a German offensive, a stunning German victory and the Poles are mostly punching bags. But it can also be seen as a war within a war, and it is usually shown in its completeness as such. Interestingly, the Polish campaign isn't particulary popular in the hobby, suggesting that it doesn't attract panzer-pushers (PZ1s and 2s are no cool) and Germanophiles, but rather those fascinated by the fate of Poland. I choose to call it a neutral topic. I call the Kursk offensive a pro-german topic, as it by its very definition ignores the soviet counteroffensive that was arguably part of the same grand scheme.

Frankly, I expected a noticeable pro-German bias for the topics, but I just can't find it. For every Barbarossa game, there seems to be a countering Normandy game. The results are nearly equal. Looked at in isolation, there is no bias in either direction for the topic selection of the wargames of 2008.

[Elias Nordling]

5: Resolution

The fifth part of the quantitative examination of possible pro-German bias is probably the trickiest:

5) Resolution: The German side is shown at a greater resolution than its opponent. For example differing colours between different weapons branches where the Allies are not given the same treatment, or detailed differentiation in unit ratings for the Germans but not for the Allies in cases where both sides showed measurably varying quality.

Glancing at pictures on the web is not enough to judge this, so here a lot of games have to fall into the unknown category. I can only judge the games I own or are otherwise familiar with. The actual categorization is tricky in itself, and I have tried to motivate the more controversial cases. Feel free to fill in the blanks or correct me when you think I've made a mistake.

Pro-German resolution:
Cobra (S&T) - Shows the SS and Luftwaffe in separate colours. If you want to claim you just show units of different services in different colours, at least the British commandos should be in a different colour too.

Paul Koenig's D-Day: The American Beaches (VPG)
Paul Koenig's D-Day: The Canadian Beach (VPG)
These two grossly overstate the German capabilities. According to the designer's notes, it's design for effect, but we are not considering the Whys here, just the Whats.
Total: 3

Pro-allied resolution:

Fields of Fire - well duh, it's a solitaire game where you play the Allies.
Barbarossa: The Russo-German War, 1941-45 (WAW) (Germans are positively generic compared to the detail in the Soviet OOB)
Total: 2

Neutral resolution:

Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the bear
Desert Duel
June'44
Highway to the Reich - HttR show different German weapons branches in different colours. No branches to represent for Allies, but Poles have their own colour for example. Lots of unit differentiation for Germans, small wonder considering the ragtag forces. Significant unit differentiation for Allies too.


Lightning Poland (arguably a slight pro-allied resolution as design for effect)


Barbarossa: Kiev to Rostov - I am told this game contains units that were actually einsatz units. I couldn't tell if it is similarily showing NKVD units that were actually busy deporting the locals. Lots of unit differentiation on both sides. If you could really get worked up about the Soviet different branches having the same background colour but different colured boxes while the Nazi branches have different background colour, i guess you could call it pro-nazi resolution.

Combat Commander Battle Pack - Stalingrad
Fast Action Battles: The Bulge (Differentiation in unit quality on both sides)

Axis & Allies Anniversary Editions (Hasbro)
The Devils' Cauldron (MMP) Se HTTR discussion.
Stalingrad: The Leather Factory (Minden)
Breakout at St. Lo (Minden)
Drive on Kursk: July 1943 (S&T) - Lots of unit variation on both sides. Equal treatment in colour choices.
Roumania 1944 (VV)
Le Chir, 8 Dec 1942 (VV)
Field Commander: Rommel (DVG) - Despite being a solitaire game from the German perspective. Resolution pretty coarse for both sides.
Assault on Sevastopol (VPG)
No Retreat! (VPG)
Drive on Metz (If the SS in separate colour is enough for you, it would be pro-German. There are no corresponding Allied forces to differentiate. Otherwise formations on both sides are colour coded and variation in unit strength is about similar. Total: 19

Not enough data:
Paukenschlag (ATO)
Gazala Line 1942 (ATO)
Factories in Flames (supplement for World in Flames) (ADG)
Arctic Convoy (in the Second World War at Sea series) (Avalanche)
Arctic Front Deluxe (revised supplement in the Panzer Grenadier series) (Avalanche)
Campaigns & Commanders Book (expansion in the Panzer Grenadier series) (Avalanche)
Elsenborn Ridge (in the Panzer Grenadier series) (Avalanche)
First Axis (supplement in the Panzer Grenadier series) (Avalanche)
Island of Death: Invasion of Malta (Avalanche)
March on Leningrad (supplement in the Panzer Grenadier series) (Avalanche)
Rumors of War (expansion for Third Reich and Great Pacific War) (Avalanche)
White Eagles (supplement in the Panzer Grenadier series) (Avalanche)
Frontline General: Italian Campaign Introduction (Collins Epic Games)
Street Fighting in Berlin (Command Japan)
101st Airborne At Brecourt Manor (compatible with Advanced Squad Leader) (Critical Hit)
Avanti Savoia (supplement in the Advanced Tobruk series) (Critical Hit)
Hurtgen Surprise (compatible with Advanced Squad Leader) (Critical Hit)
Ivan's War (compatible with Advanced Squad Leader) (Critical Hit)
Red Christmas - The CSIR and the Moscow Counter Offensive (compatible with Advanced Squad Leader) (Critical Hit)
Spanish Fury - Hell on the Eastern Front (compatible with Advanced Squad Leader) (Critical Hit)
Stalingrad (2nd. ed., in the Advanced Tobruk series) (Critical Hit)
Surprised Outside of Strass (supplement in the Advanced Tobruk series) (Critical Hit) Sinyavino 1942 (Firefight Games)
Stalingrad (in the Empires of History series) (Guild of Blades)
Alam Halfa (Chris Harding)
The Battle for Berlin (Kurt Kempf)
Operation Typhoon: Barbarossa Denied (L2)
Lock 'n Load: Dark July (LnL)
Action Pack 4: Normandy 1944 (in the Advanced Squad Leader series) (MMP)
Singling (in the Advanced Squad Leader series) (MMP)
Storm Over Stalingrad (MMP)
Valor of the Guards (in the Advanced Squad Leader series) (MMP)
Polonia '39
Bagration 1944
Pantery w akcji (Kaniów 1943)
Red Thunderstorm (Budziszyn 1945)
Maleme, 20-23 May 1941 (VV)
Total: 37

Discussion: I wasn't able to find a statistically significant bias in resolution in any direction. It doesn't mean it isn't there, it might just have been to subtle for me to detect.

[Elias Nordling]

Part 6: Summary

I have looked for signs of pro-German bias in the games of a randomly selected recent year to see if there is in fact such a bias. I have been looking at titles, covers, copy-text, topic and resolution of the games, and I haven't been able to find any pro-German bias when each category is looked at in isolation. So what happens when you add all factors together: A pro-German bias in a category is counted as a plus, a pro-Allied as a minus. I count the categories topic and resolution as twice the weight of the others, as they are about what we actually do rather than what impression we want to give of what we do.

Here:s the result:

5: Field Commander: Rommel
4: Barbarossa: Kiev to Rostov
4: Operation Typhoon: Barbarossa Denied
4: Drive on Kursk: July 1943
4: Pantery w akcji (Kaniów 1943)
4: Assault on Sevastopol
3: Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! - Russia 1941-1942
3: Paukenschlag
3: March on Leningrad
3: Lock 'n Load: Dark July
2: Desert Duel
2: Red Christmas
2: Alam Halfa
2: Storm Over Stalingrad
2: Stalingrad: The Leather Factory
2: Roumania 1944
2: Le Chir, 8 Dec 1942
2: Maleme, 20-23 May 1941
1: Campaigns and Commanders
1: Island of Death
1: Spanish Fury
1: Stalingrad
1: Combat Commander Battle Pack - Stalingrad
1: Fast Action Battles: The Bulge
1: Polonia '39
0: Gazala Line 1942
0: Factories in Flames
0: Arctic Front
0: First Axis
0: Avanti Savoia
0: Lightning Poland
0: Stalingrad (in the Empires of History series)
0: Axis & Allies Anniversary Edition
0: Valor of the Guards
0: No Retreat!
0: Barbarossa: The Russo-German War, 1941-45
0: The Bulge
-1: Elseborn Ridge
-1: Rumors of War
-1: Frontline General: Italian Campaign
-1: Ivan's War
-2: Arctic Convoy
-2: Street Fighting in Berlin
-2: Hurtgen Surprise
-2: The Battle for Berlin
-2: Singling (in the Advanced Squad Leader series)
-2: Cobra
-2: Paul Koenig's D-Day: The American Beaches
-2: Paul Koenig's D-Day: The Canadian Beach
-3: White Eagles
-3: 101st Airborne At Brecourt Manor
-3: Surprised Outside of Strass
-3: June'44
-3: Sinyavino 1942
-3: Action Pack 4: Normandy 1944
-3: Breakout at St. Lo
-4: Bagration 1944
-4: Red Thunderstorm (Budziszyn 1945)
-4: The Drive on Metz
-5: Highway to the Reich
-5: Fields of Fire
-5: The Devils' Cauldron


As you see, most games end up having some bias in one direction or the other. There are an exact equal amount of games with a detected pro-German and pro-Allied bias, 25 each. If you look at the games with 2 or more bias points, there are 22 pro-allied to 18 pro-German games. If you look at 3 or more bias points, there are 13 pro-Allied to 10 pro-German games.

So, if anything, there might be a slight pro-Allied bias in the games published in 2008. Certainly, I was unable to detect a pro-Nazi bias. There is no reason to think 2008 is a special year on this account, it is probably representative of the games published the last 10 years.

This analysis doesn't say anything about whether there is a pro-Nazi bias among the GAMERS of our hobby. It does suggest that if there is, the publishers don't do anything to cater to it. Neither does it say if there has historically been such a bias. It is this author's suspicion that there has been such a bias previously in this hobby.

Neither does it say anything about whether individual games are in good taste or not. For example, I can see the game Field Commander: Rommel in this sample being controversial and perceived as an act of worship of a Nazi general. But this works both ways, Field Commander: Rommel says nothing about any pro-Nazi bias in the hobby in general, as for every Field Commander Rommel, there is a Fields of Fire which is a solitaire game that can be seen as a tribute to an Allied combat unit.

So, to link back to David Hughes' article: He might find the game The Barbarossa Campaign in bad taste, but that doesn't make it part of a big trend of Nazi Bias in this hobby. To make such a claim would require more than anecdotal evidence.

[Fredrik H]

Att du bara orkar!  

Jag tycker iofs att det är bra att du komplettererar folks ogrundade åsikter med en dos verklighet. Det är väldigt lätt att få en subjektiv känsla om bakfoten och upphöja den till fakta (som att jag tycker att varannat jämra spel som trycks är CDG - jag vet att det inte är så men det KÄNNS så).

Jag tycker själv att vissa sidor i olika krig är olika tilltalande av speltekniska och historiska skäl, men jag känner inte riktigt hur det hotar min världsbild eller så. Att vara amerikan i WW2 är tråkigast, ryssarna är mycket intressantare. Att vara Österrike i WW1 är roligare än fransmännen etc. Är jag ett problem för det?

Bra gjort Elias!    

[Scipio]

Ambitiös och intressant studie.
Tack för analysen Elias!


Själv så fann jag när jag startade med krigsspel så tyckte jag det var mycket intressantare att spela den tyska sidan.
Anledningarna var att på strategisk nivå så är tyskarna vid rodret över händelseutvecklingen eller i centrum händelserna under kriget från början till slut, det gäller ju inte någon annan ETO inblandad makt.

På taktisk nivå så var det så enkelt att tyskarna hade den roligare hårdvaran och att det ofta är roligare att spela den numerärt underlägsne men teknologiskt förfördelade sidan och den tyska organisationen är roligare och den tyska militära terminologin är skojigare.

Tror många ser det på ett liknande sätt och det kan nog finnas dom som tolkar sådant beteende som tysk-glorifierande, jag ser inte något sådant eller kan påminna mig om att jag sett spelare jag träffat som tysk-glorifierande på något sätt. Det kanske finns men det måste i så fall vara grymt ovanligt.

Efter några års spelande så tappade man det och intresset gick från sådant över till sånt som historisk korrekthet, spelmekaniker, balans osv. Tror det händer dom flesta.

Det är en sak att konstatera att det finns ett större intresse för att studera olika delar av den tyska krigsmakten bland spelare, vilket säkert stämmer. Det är en annan sak att säga att tyska sidan glorifieras av krigsspelare.

Anyways, din analys intressant och befäster den känslan jag fått nar jag packar upp dom nya spelen som droppar in allteftersom.  

[zilver]

I stort verkar det vara en rimlig analys. Det enda som kan adderas är egentligen att det inte är så konstigt att fokus hamnar på just de aspekterna som kan tänkas glorifiera nazism. Det gäller nog alla sysselsättningar att vissa aspekter sätts mer under luppen än andra. Alla MC-åkare är väl misstänkta Hells Angels sett utifrån, i alla fall om dem har skinnpajen på.

Det var nog mer sådant här förr, men det kan också vara en funktion av att folk i hobbyn blir äldre och visare.

Artikeln ifråga var väl lite väl flåshurtig i frågan, men jag kan inte påstå att jag blir särskilt upprörd. Det är väl inte fel att diskutera saken i alla fall.

[Snowfox]

Intressant, det visar att de amerikanska spelbolagen tagit intryck av den lagstiftning som gäller i bl a Tyskland. Vem hickade inte till när man läste i Operations på 90-talet om en tysk spelare som blev kallad till förhör när tullen upptäckte hakkorsen på de tyska stabsbrickorna i Guderian's Blitzkrieg. Money talks så att säga. Det analysen missar är spelarens preferenser. Och den statistik som visar antal användarnamn med order Panzer eller namnet på någon nazibefälhavare var skrämmande högt på BoardgamersGeek.com.

Själv kan jag bara konstatera att det under alla tider varit mycket enklare att hitta PBM och PBEM motståndare om du erbjudit dem att spela den tyska sidan. Det gällde för övrigt även om du sökte motståndare på spelklubben theblitz.org som är en "förening" på internet för folk som söker motståndare i krigsspel på dator. Där kan det kanske förklaras av vad Ola nämnde, nämligen att tyskarnas hårdvara var mer intressant då en stor andel av datorkrigsspelen handlar om taktisk nivå där hårdvaran syns.

Artikeln är väl värd att läsa, den analytiska modell som författaren tillämpar, delar upp oss två grupper som du genomgående kan identifiera i den här typen av diskussioner.

[Erik Axel]

Elias intressanta analys var förvånande, jag hade väntat mig en tydligare slagsida åt tyskt håll. Men det var mycket intressant.

Upplösningsfrågan kanske skulle svänga över mer åt den tyska sidan om man tog hänsyn till regler vars syfte är att åstadkomma något med den tyska sidan. Å andra sidan, var går gränsen mellan tyskfascination och ett behov av specialregler för att göra ett mer realistiskt eller roligare spel (eller både och)?

Som Churchill säger så har man ju en känsla av att många helst spelar tyskar. Det gäller till exempel mig (fast jag spelar ännu hellre Finland).

[Fredrik H]

Som Churchill säger så har man ju en känsla av att många helst spelar tyskar. Det gäller till exempel mig (fast jag spelar ännu hellre Finland).

Jaha, där kom den. Jag har länge haft en känsla av pro-finska krigsspel. Egen färg på brickorna, skidor åt alla inklusive husmor och jag vet inte allt!
 

[Erik Axel]

ASL är nästan oanständigt pro-finskt. Finska ingenjörssoldater är spelets hårdaste monster, näst US Marines. Alla kan självralla också, inga plutonchefer som håller ordning här inte, den finske bonden reder sig själv (etc., etc.).

[Maglica]

ASL är nästan oanständigt pro-finskt. Finska ingenjörssoldater är spelets hårdaste monster, näst US Marines. Alla kan självralla också, inga plutonchefer som håller ordning här inte, den finske bonden reder sig själv (etc., etc.).

Dom kommer att differentieras lite mer i den kommande Finn-modulen.

/Robert

[Mode]

... I was unable to detect a pro-Nazi bias. There is no reason to think 2008 is a special year on this account, it is probably representative of the games published the last 10 years.

Frågan är om det var "värre" förr, d.v.s. skulle det gå att hitta den om man tittade på 70-, 80- eller 90-talets spel? Jag kan mycket väl tänka mig att diskussionen färgats av tidigare intryck.

I SL-modulen CoI (70-tal) var SS svarta brickor, men i ASL (80-tal) har de samma blågrå färg (dock med en liten SS-logga) som resten av tyska hären. Ett tecken i tiden?

[Elias Nordling]

Jag gissar att det var "värre förr", men jag har inget belägg för det.

På tal om ämnets rubrik, i spelet Partizan finns det svartvita brickor, men det är inte de snälla mespropparna i SS som har dem. Det är Ustasja. Det finns grader även i helvetet